One of those things occurred that made me look up and take notice.

I've got good pattern recognition, because it's part of my job and I have bad eyesight. That pattern recognition carries over into other perceptions; and when my intuition trips my awareness to a pattern happening, I generally focus down until I can see and verbalize it.

Since I mentioned the 2 thieves (sigh...yes, another Bible thing...you should know me by now....)[And not to sound like a monofiliment hum - I've got other interests other than this - but these things push my buttons.] in a another rant ('bring out the lions'); I've heard the story mentioned a couple of times in the past couple of weeks.

And it occurred to me, the pattern played out with the two thieves on either side of Him, is reflected in a few of the posts I've read here. Not to be slapping around at nonchristians, but only specifically to those who take some glee in focusing exclusively on tearing at a belief in Jesus as God, 'like you'd have to be mental and stupid to believe'; with a sneer in their tone; and dripping disdain and intolerance. So I'm going to think out loud here, and paint a picture as I go, of these 'polarities' surrounding this story within the story of the Sacrifice. For the sake of the illustration, I'm going to (...groan...) even quote from the Bible.

In the Gospels, both Mark and Matthew say that both thieves yelled abuse at Him. (assuming it must have been abuse from both of them -- maybe the witness could only hear the loudest one, or only the negative was reported because that's what most of the crowd and priests and soldiers were yelling. and the witness could only see the thieves' heads turn and their lips move. One yelled harshly at Jesus, and the other yelled past Jesus to the other -- it would look like they're both yelling at Jesus.) (Luke reports that most of His followers were watching from a distance.) John, who was there with Mary, only reports that there were two thieves but not that they said anything. I think he was focused on holding Mary up and comforting her.

It's from Luke that we get the details of the people He died with. Luke, the disciplined Greek-trained doctor, who would try to be the most precise.

***One of the criminals hanging there covered Him with abuse, and said,

"Aren't you Christ? Why don't you save yourself--and us?"

But the other one checked him with the words:

"Aren't you afraid of God even when you're getting the same punishment as he is? And it's fair enough for us, for we've only got what we deserve, but this man never did anything wrong in his life."

Then he said,

Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

And Jesus answered,

"I tell you truly, this very day you will be with me in paradise."***

This is a familiar tune -- "hey Jesus, are you really God? Hey, I doubt it. If you were, you would act like I'd expect god to act and show me some miracles and make my life all perfect and wonderful and let me do anything I wanted, with no consequences."

Who knows what the other abuse was: but with the priests, soldiers, and tourists (it was the holydays) mocking and cursing; he certainly picked up some ideas.

The priests would be the loudest with pointing out that He certainly didn't look like God now. How dare He pretend to be God, and say all those things that had hundreds of people coming to them all the time asking difficult pesky questions. Questions generated by Him that made listeners think. How dare He say they weren't doing their jobs, and actually working against God. How dare He make them feel guilty and redundant How dare He make fools of them in front of the people. How dare He attack major moneymaking right in the middle of the busy season. God was good business, and this guy was going to ruin everything and get rid of the whole system. Why, if everyone could run to God anytime they wanted, who would want to pay for a priest's upkeep? No job security and no retirement. Where would the fear and respect and status come from then? And all the study and work down the drain, when this guy would let any idiot reach God, anytime, anywhere, all the time. All our precious rules that we live for, that occupies all our time and energy, are made as nothing, and shown to be worthless. All the tip-toeing around, hush, hush, and endless rituals -- thrown out the window. This guy was a snake, always twisting our words, always making us the losers in His arguments. Look at Him now. -- Hah -- if He were OUR God, we'd be blasted to cinders -- whatta fake! Die, heretic, die!

The soldiers would be angry because it was another uppity raghead troublemaker revolutionary, claiming a kingship Caesar never granted. Zero tolerance to would-be royalty; no challenge allowed to their Empire's authority or status quo. This guy threatened their jobs and security. This province was constantly in revolt, and if you didn't want a knife in the back, you'd better use the sword liberally. The only sane Jew is a dead Jew. They're all insurrectionists and have to be put down. Their rebel leader was let go instead of this guy, so He must be real trouble. And cruelty is the only relief to a dangerous, tedious, thankless job, way out here on the Empire's frontier. Punishment duty, and they'll take it out on anybody. Officially sanctioned meanness encourages whipping and beating and torture; -- and might as well get the last licks in while He lasts. Uncivilized heathen barbarian. If only You were just pagan, none of this would've happened. If you just had followed rules and done what you're told; obey and preserve the system, this could've been avoided. Stupid, pig-headed Jew. Here, king this! I've got your kingdom right here, fella! Caesar was god and king, WHO was this upstart peon?

And the tourists and the curious would add comments like any mob when they have a victim cornered. A lot of venting because they expected Him to kick the Roman's asses, and begin a Jewish empire. He had been putting on a pretty good show with the miracles and all, and this was a pathetic letdown. Here's a chance for Him to act the god part, and instead, He's nothing.

Most of the thief's abuse probably was centered around the unbelief of who He was. "I'm a big-time businessman, in for myself, and stupid enough to get caught. But you're a moron -- dying for claiming to be god. You could've kept your mouth shut, or run away even. What a moron, dying because you're a loony. Let's see your dementia get you out of this one, and hahaha get me out too while you're at it."

And now the reply.

"First, what an idiot. You're dying, and you'll soon be finding out if there's a God, and you want to spend your last living moments poking this guy? He never did anything to you, much less anything wrong to anyone. Don't you have any fear? Not of dying, because it's certain you're not going to get out of dying --but in facing what will happen to you after you're dead. You're an idiot for spending your last moments of life kicking someone who's down; someone who doesn't even deserve it. Aren't you afraid your last recorded moments are of being mean and beastial? You must not believe in an afterlife to be such a hardhead; but this guy is dying here with us because He believes in it to the point of death, and it's His only reason for being here. And the only reason they're killing Him. You don't know if there's an afterlife. You don't know if there's a God. You're about to die, and you're dying just like you lived, selfish and mean. You have come to your end, and you have nothing; so you continue taking from others right to the end. Take their last moments making noise at them, take whatever peace they're trying to attain in their last breath, take away whatever dignity they have left by running them down, take whatever last drop you can steal. If you can tear someone else down, you'll sure feel bigger. If you're wrong, aren't you the least bit afraid of what God is going to think of you?".

"And so, Jesus, remember me. I'm not completely sure if you're God or even His representative, but you seem to be. But I do know that if I'm in God's mind, then I have existence. So if and when you do your kingdom, remember I stuck up for you. I'm not asking for rescue, to get off the hook, or even forgiveness. Just remember me, that I was an individual who once lived, and just happened to die with you. As crazy as it sounds, with us all dying here; I think you are what you say you are. I don't know what all this means, god-stuff and cosmic big-trips; I just know You just don't deserve the grief you're getting."

And Jesus says -- "Truth. There is an afterlife. I am God and can assure you of this. You will be with me. Not for knowing scripture, or being the best you can be, or belonging to the right group or even My group, or knowing and figuring out spiritual things, or oaths and rituals, or for letting your light shine, or for loving everyone, -- but for declaring for God and defending for God, in the face of death and everyone below your cross against you and against God. You allied yourself with God, in spite of everyone and everything seemingly against Him."

To draw a parallel with attitudes in the present:

At least ninety percent of the posters here have stated either an expectation of, or admitted the possibly of, Major Earth Changes and what they think of it. This can be the GREATDEVOURINGWAVEFROMTHECENTER, or insane nations disposing their munitions before their expiration date, or malignant aliens, or mutating virii, or vengeful planets, giant dirt-clods from outer space, chemical strangulation, etc., etc. Doesn't matter.

When you're dangling just above extinction; it's not a good time to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What if you're wrong? Don't mock what you don't know.

I don't attack your beliefs.

I've come down on AO, not for what he believes, and not so much for the way he presented it; but for the way he presented himself. For the same reason, applied to me, I take the slams from lou and others, shrug my shoulders, much as I suspect AO does, and go on about my business.

(And except for the time I honestly thought someone said 'giant hemorrhoids') I haven't gone after and slammed anyone's belief in intelligent tomatoes, or purple beams, or talking dimensions, or whatever. What I believe doesn't rule out unicorns or djinn or alien beings or intelligent dinosaurs. (all which I happen to believe in, but have no effect or relevance to the Gospel).

Honest debate about differences in belief is necessary, both to clarify your own thoughts on the matter, and to open yourself to new ways of thinking, and to incorporate unexplored territory into your world view. Never would I expect to convert anyone to my point of view: but do find it important that my point of view has not been misunderstood or just glossed over along the long trail to find truth. I do get impatient with those that dodge both the questions and the answers. But even that's expected.

I might be totally wrong. Okay, but I still do my best to help anyone who's down. I try to be an influence for rationality in a crazy world. I work hard, and I try to make those around me laugh. I pray for others, and try to ease those in pain. What have I done to the world if I'm wrong? Nothing. Only I have been the fool. No biggie, I've got fairly thick skin. It's only my bad luck if I'm stuck on the Wheel a couple more eons. Or if just the Void, I'll never know it. Or if you all jump into the sky and leave me in the mud...oh, well... My outlook is my own, and my own responsibility. How is what I believe dragging you down? Leave me to my own folly, and I'll do the same for you. Want to compare follies? I love to do that. Let's discuss; it seems to be, of all living creatures, we're best suited and designed for doing just that.

But don't condemn what I believe and my source, and use that belief and source as weapons. If you must slam the Bible, use some other source to do so. Don't bother to dig and twist inside it, you only impress others like you. Obviously you don't understand it, so it's useless and redundant to say that it's all nonsense. (If I didn't understand car engines, it'd be stupid to argue that displacement had nothing to do with horsepower.) You're better off arguing that my thought processes were defective.

If the Bible means nothing to you, then act like it, treat it like it's nothing -- it's invisible to you, and you don't have to use any of it.

But if I'm not wrong -- then the least you could do is cover your ass by not slamming the One you might have to face.

So if we're hanging on our crosses in this life --- I'm yelling at you, dude.