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I don't think knowing what we'll do is the same as making us do it.
You now know how to ride a bicycle. But even knowing now in the present,
and remembering the moment you learned how to ride, can't be applied to the past. Knowing how to ride a bike now, didn't and
doesn't affect the moment in the past when you did learn.
Knowing the answers to a test, before you take it, and after you take
it; doesn't affect the knowledge you have while you're taking it. At the moment of the test, you only contain what you have
for that moment.
Of course the past has more of an effect, because we're linear, and
we build upon the past; but there's always faulty memory, or going absolutely blank, (Of course off-set by synergistic inspiration,
or pulling answers out of the blue, and all sorts of mental gymnastics that means your mind is different, moment by moment,)
that makes the past less than reliable. And as for the future; becaue I'll be in the next level class next year because I
passed this test, won't affect this test right now.
Neither the past nor the future is this present moment. No matter
the Whole is one continuity, there is only one focal point in the flow, this present moment, the membrane between the past
and the future. For a Being outside of Time, He is only going to look at the end result when referring to the person being
observed.
You can make the choice to have your footsteps directed, or wander
on your own.
At each point you make choices. I won't touch fire now because I got
burnt in the past. I won't build too big of a fire now, because I can extropolate getting burnt by an uncontained fire in
the future. That may have a bearing on my decision to make a fire at this particular moment; but to build or not build a fire
is a decision for this particular moment alone. External factors may have a bearing (make warmth or die), but do not make
the choice in and of themselves, they only weigh on what side the choice may fall.
I can know that my child will someday learn how to speak, but that
knowledge won't get him talking.
An all-knowing Being however all-powerful, either dances people around
like atoms in Brownian motion in complete control of their every thought and deed (so go through life sleeping---cruise control);
in which case you can have no resposibility; or he allows choices every moment, to participate in or reject the rules He set.
Him knowing the outcome is not the same as manufacturing how the choices
were made to arrive there. Manufacturing the circumstances is not manufacturing the choice. Knowing motivations and intents;
and even providing motivation and strengthening intent; still leaves the individual free to accept or reject.
Or there is no God. And in that case, free will or not, there's no
responsibility (except possibly self-preservation). Do what you like. Subjugate the world, because that's the highest pinnacle
of survival of the fittest.
Proof takes you only as far as you can measure.
Faith takes
you farther than you can reach.
You can come to belief from either/both avenues.
I have faith that the world will be here when I wake up, I have no
proof that it will be.
machine--
"You belief that the world will still be here next morning is based on your
observations."
All my faith is based on my observations
you have faith that all your thoughts are yours alone.
You
have no proof of that.
You have faith that the world will be here for you tomorrow, but a fatal heart attack tonight
will prove you won´t be. Don´t get loose with your definitions of faith and proof. We all have faith in everyday things, and
take the imagined ´proof´ of them for granted. Real proof is hard to come by, and by any scientific grounds eventually has
you taking even scientific theorems by faith.
It´s like talking about having a ´sure thing´. Yeah, right.
Feelings
and emotions have nothing to do with faith, I have more feelings and emotions about ´proofs´.
I don´t have to have faith
that I´m alive, I can prove I´m alive. But anything that I extropolate into the future is faith -- unless you know the future.
I can see the probibilities that I´ll be alive, and see an enormous amount of data suggesting that I will be -- but I don´t
KNOW that I will. You know the phrase -- shit happens. So all your expectations that you´ll be alive tomorrow, or wishes,
or hopes, etc. is just another word for faith.
I know I´m typing to you. I have visual proof. I can only have faith that
you´re reading this now, and not wandered off. I don´t know, and won´t have proofthat you´re reading this, until you respond.
I believe I´m typing to you. After you respond, I´ll still believe I´ve typed to you. One condition of faith, another of proof
-- both conditions of belief.
I can ´hope´ that the cop doesn´t pull me over. But it´s an unreasonable
expectation if I don´t have licence plates. Then you´re counting on luck or fate or chance to save your ass. Far too many
do.
I agree, hope is looking from a viewpoint, mired in shit, trying to get to dry ground.
Moving from a negative
circumstance, to one of beauty.
But unfounded hope is just like wishing, and as you say, just as useful/useless.
Without
Faith, you have nothing to justify your hope. Faith is the guarantee of your Hope.
Hope is the expectation of what
your Faith promises.
(Do not juxtipose Faith with Religion)
Faith is the knowing of things not yet proven.
It´s not giving up free will, it´s exercising free will.
As
for giving up my identity, I´ve wrestled with this for years.
As a child, I was appalled over the fact that adults
seemed so different. I felt that to become an adult I´d have to give up my ´identity´, the thing that makes me ´me´.
Then
I saw the three stooges, and knew I was safe.
I have the feeling that the afterlife will be the same case. I´m sure
the parts of my identity that´s wrapped up in sin will pass away (and good riddance).
But if He has a place created
just specifically for me, He has the parts of my identity kept safe for then too.
If parts don´t make it, then you
didn´t need them.
Not very reassuring, but there would be no rejoicing if all you were was a blank slate when you
got there.
All I can do is let go, and let God do His job and rescue what parts of me that are necessary.
Speaking as one independent (insert contradiction in terms here) puppet,
I see your point...
On one hand, if there is an all knowing Creator, then his knowledge should
have the force of Law and there is no wiggle room...
But this is the special circumstances, the special 'ground' where the 'impossible'
happens...
Let me take you back to the point in the story that effects this very argument...
The point in creation when creatures with volition were created...Where did
that volition come from?...for out of the thought of volition came what we know as free will...
Presumably Adam had this free will, but until he was presented with something
that was disallowed, the exercises of that free will was a moot point...
A better case in point would be the Adversary...the peak of creation, who
invented the notion of rebellion (although he must have been created with the potential for that mutiny)(try as you might,
you cannot be what you are not -- a rock can metamorph from gravel to sand to mud and back to rock...but essentially a rock
is all it can be)...that potential was created for a Purpose, (maybe just a contingency plan), (but, as you say 'He must have
known', that it would be excersised...yet to be fair, the potential for going either way -- obedience or rebellion had to
be built in..) but, as He is recorded as stating, doing this whole thing to demonstrate His nature to all of creation....
Only the Creator has the ability (or to whom He designates the ability),
(or I should say is the Originator of the creation process), to create.
For rebellion to exist, it cannot create a state of being -- it can only
mutate, distort and twist, and invert what already exists...
For the concept of Light, there is no actual Dark, there is only not-Light
-- for truth, there is not-truth, relabeled as a lie...The inverses have no existence in and of themselves, they can only
feed off the original, and bend it to their own will...
And it is the state of that independent will, that is the most awesome thing
in all of creation, next to God Himself....far and above the mere fact of creation itself....
For God to allow a state to exist, that by strict definition, should be impossible...like
you say, if God knows it, it has no other avenue except to be as He perceives it...
The state of Independence -- to exist outside of the Author of Existence
is a special condition -- created especially as the entire point of created existence -- the ability to accept or reject the
Author of that freedom....The shadow ability to operate as a god yourself....
How could God create something that was not of Himself? This is like the
old corundum of 'could God create a stone so large He couldn't move it?'...Well, no, for God to step out of His nature would
mean He wouldn't be God...that's like saying is it possible for God to create another god more powerful than Himself...a logical
fallacy...Ultimate, by definition, has no beyond or further or greater...All inclusive means there ain't no more...the Creator
means that anything simply won't have existence unless He allows it...
This is the mind-wrencher -- to put that zone of being able to step away
from Existence, into existence...
The ancients called this part of the Mystery of Evil...how could God create
something so opposite to His nature?...He didn't create it...He created the circumstances and parameters for it to arise from
itself...Not from any form out of nothing, but from a twisting of what already is....
There were two objects...one: the Creator-- the other: the pinnacle of creation.
That entity that was the ultimate created object, took the notion of godness,
and abandoning his state of connection in the hierarchy, applied the nature of godhood to himself...He invented or created
nothing, he merely rearranged priorities as applied to himself...in his exercise of free will, he took it to the ultimate
step -- That if God could pull this special condition of being able to step away from the Sustainer of creation out of wherever
He got it from and give it to His creatures -- then the ultimate goal would be to go as far from the Originator as possible,
in not just exercise of will, but in fact of existance...To actually Be, apart from the Giver of Beingness....
This story gets a further twist in the story of the Temptation -- where the
One with the Authority was goaded into granting that state of godness -- The attempt for God to declare, and bring into existence,
another God....
This is the essence of the story of our Temptation -- the one we failed...but
the machinations of bending Reality, so that a valid shadow reality would be equally Real....
The very nature of existence is bound up in this free will choosing...the
way the universe operates, and the way that the mind works, would all be completely different, if the equation of freewill
were not introduced...
Who knows what manner of existence did occur before this Great Experiment
started? For us, all we have is this testing ground...and believe me, the last thing any opponent to the using of freewill
for obedience would want, is an understanding of the nature of this proving ground....
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