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nolomolistari
3/22/2003
5:43 pm EST
Re: AN ANGEL TOLD ME ITS OK FOR ME TO BE GAY
IMO, (and I´m way out on a limb, here, because I´m not gay, and don´t know what you feel, John.) But
if you were told by your church you were ´wrong´ being gay; and you accepted forgiveness because you wanted to be right, then
you´re forgiven.
No amount of wanting to change, actually changed your feelings or alignment. So you are what you are.
The more you don´t act on your feelings, the more spiritual strength you practice. But nonetheless - forgiven is forgiven.
Everyone, no matter what alignment, who has a struggle with lust or sexual addiction, has it hardwired into them; it´s
just an expression of the Fall; a flaw that never goes away. If we´re given the strength to overcome it, then we work at it,
and overcome it. If we just don´t have the ability to resist, then we´re yearning for something that´ll never happen without
a miracle.
I´ll never give up wanting to fly; but I´ll never have wings.
We can only do our best with what we´ve got.
That being said; what was the point of homosexuality and adultery being so vile in God´s eyes?
Betrayal.
It
broke a Patten, He instituted to make the union of ´material and spiritual´, or ´human and Divine´, workable.
In the
case of homosexuality, it was betrayal of the created nature of male and female, to use sex for reproduction - the continuation
of the species.
In the case of adultery, it was betrayal of one out of two people, who were spiritually made one flesh.
In the case of fornication, it was betrayal of the marriage state, because they weren´t of one flesh.
In the case
of idolatry, it was fornication (marriage) to another god.
All of that as an illustration of why the ´marriage and
one flesh´ idea was instituted in the first place.
It´s not just reproduction - that´s only what we share with the animals,
and part of our material nature.
But God also made us to be a spiritual creature.
And His institution of marriage
was to illustrate the relationship between us and Him.
He calls His return to collect the Church, the wedding feast
of the lamb.
He calls His Church, His bride.
The Church is referred as the Bride of Christ.
Yes, Humanity
is Female.
We are always Receptacles (female) of what God gives us.
God is always the Creative Initiator (male).
That´s why the references to Him planting the seed of His Spirit in believers. The seed of the Gospel. etc.
His terms
of reference to Himself is one of male (Father in heaven, Son of God, etc.)
God of course is sexless as we think of sex;
but in spiritual essence-type terms, He´s always the one doing, and we´re always the ones being done to. (I can hear the sniggerings
from the atheists now)
This is how, just as in a marriage, both are equal; but one provides the direction and vision,
and the other the nurturing and nesting.
Our partnership with God will be the same. We´ll be as gods - we´ll be like God
- He´ll forever dwell in us - we´ll be Christ manifested --- all are images of our marriage to Him.
It´s the breaking
of the pattern, that God gets upset at; I don´t think He really cares what meat bodies do. But since He established the pattern,
and He´s made us of flesh and spirit; and if you want to be more than just flesh; you have to attempt to follow the pattern.
They´ll be no marriage in heaven because we´ll be married to God.
But it doesn´t say we´ll lose our sex organs,
so who knows what recreation we´ll be allowed with each other.
We´ll just have to wait and see.
IMO.
....(fade
to image of frankenstein villager-types with pitchforks and torches storming up the hill.)...(i.e. - feminists, biblethumpers,
gays, earthmotherworshipers, etc.)....
...gotta run...
nolomolistari
3/22/2003
8:54 pm EST
to repeat what boy oh boy
said --
From what I read in the Bible, Jesus seemed to do condemning of the established priests and religious teachers
(whoever said Jesus never condemned ought to look at the intent of calling people snakes, vipers, and tombs), all those
who ought to know better.
In contrast:
Crowds would gather at the houses He stayed at; prostitutes, collaborators,
thieves, scammers, lowlifes, and SINNERS would flock to the places He would talk at. You think if He stood there and started
pointing His finger and said "You, queer; you ain´t coming in my kingdom. You, fornicator, you´re going to hell. You liar,
forget it.", that those crowds would have followed Him?
Now I know He said that none of these will be in the kingdom
of heaven, so He must have known there would be a transformation in them -- based on what He told them about the kingdom;
not about what He might have told them about themselves.
What you desire the most will lead you. If it´s God, you´ll
reach God. If it´s sex, well, flesh only lasts for so long.
nolomolistari
3/22/2003
9:22 pm EST
Repent means ´to turn around,
facing the opposite direction´.(check your Greek)
If your direction was in serving yourself, you turn completely around
and serve God. In the service of God, you find less and less time spent in serving your own desires.
In the desire
to please (or obtain) the object of your desire, you will sacrifice everything else.
To follow God, I will sacrifice my
desires to sin, and do what pleases Him.
That is true repentance, not some magical formula parroted like some damn
robot.
nolomolistari
3/22/2003
9:47 pm EST
I´m bumping this ´cause I want
an answer.
Am I wrong?
Is not the point of serving 2 masters being impossible, the whole story of repentance?
What you chase after, you will ultimately reach?
Isn´t the Gospel the good news that chasing after God was
not only obtainable, but that you´d have help from God Himself?
Come on...has straining at the definitions of words
blinded you to the Message?
ANSWER ME
(I said check the word in the Greek, not English...)
nolomolistari
3/22/2003
10:58 pm EST
Well, if the shoe fits...robot.
And what use are robots, ´having the form, but not the substance´, in the kingdom? Hence, their place is damned. Hopefully,
you´re not completely an automaton.
Take up your cross -- sounds like you´ve taken up your sofa.
And I don´t
pretend to false meekness. If you practiced meekness, you would have taken criticism and learned.
Show me the meekness
in blasting the fig tree, in driving out the moneylenders, in chastising the religious teachers, etc.
Robot.
You´re
called to be a warrior: you know; take up the armor of God, use the sword of the Spirit, etc.
Parroting dogma that hasn´t
penetrated your heart is what has the unbelievers laughing.
The only true, from the heart, thing you said, was ´being
the lost sheep and thanking Him for it´.
Now get off your ass and learn what the implications of that belief are.
Nothing
personal to you, but the knee-jerk, "I´m saved, your not", is NOT the spirit of the Gospel.
...SHOUT???...I´d
assumed since you were blind, you mightve been deaf, too...
("Goodbye"??? you couldn´t wait 10 minutes? Instant
salvation, instant answers, instant problem solving. What ARE they teaching kids these days?)
I´d rather be thought
a complete asshole, and you get something right implanted in your brain; than be mealy-mouthed, PC, and popular.
nolomolistari
3/23/2003
12:55 pm EST
shadrack --
you need
to be shaken, not stirred.
a theological debate is almost pointless with you, as I can see with you and Morjeck.
what´s
the point of endlessly throwing quotes back and forth?
I avoid using quotes as much as possible, because quotes are
an external thing. I´m interested in what a person has internalized.
Silly boy, I´m not in rage, angry, or pissed.
I´m only irritated that you don´t seem to get the point of communication. You don´t have anything for anyone to get angry
over. You have no content, once you flop the page open to your quote in the Book.
Didn´t you wonder the WHY of what
you believe? I put out a premise of why I thought being gay was frowned on by God, I see only endless parroting from you.
We are told to examine everything. I see you´ve never been taught how to examine.
So you have relegated yourself to
just being a cheerleader for scripture, which has its place; but don´t try to debate when you have no skills for it.
thank
you morjek for doing the leg work.
rotflmao--nolopastrami--lol lol lol!
nolomolistari
3/23/2003
9:36 pm EST
***but you mention nothing
of Gods word or anything really that makes sense.***
^And His institution of marriage was to illustrate the relationship
between us and Him.^
^ The Church is referred as the Bride of Christ.^
^In the desire to please (or obtain) the object
of your desire, you will sacrifice everything else. To follow God, I will sacrifice my desires to sin, and do what pleases
Him.^
^Is not the point of serving 2 masters being impossible, the whole story of repentance? ^
^You´re called to
be a warrior: you know; take up the armor of God, use the sword of the Spirit, etc.^
^Repent means ´to turn around, facing
the opposite direction´.^
^Now I know He said that none of these will be in the kingdom of heaven, so He must have known
there would be a transformation in them -- based on what He told them about the kingdom; not about what He might have told
them about themselves.^
^Isn´t the Gospel the good news that chasing after God was not only obtainable, but that you´d
have help from God Himself?^
So that´s not from God´s word?
You couldn´t find any of that in the Bible?
And
why don´t those sentences make sense to you?
If you seek God, you´ll find Him, and He´ll encourage that search? What is
the Gospel if not that? You can add details, such as the plan of salvation, and the history of the Jews, the workings of faith,
the grounding of all things in love, the final outcome of history, etc, etc,; but the bottom line of the Gospel (remember,
disciples were sent out with the gospel, long before He died.) was that the kingdom of heaven was within reach (at hand).
(If you turned around (repented), heaven would be staring you in the face.)
***Then you attack A/C whom you also don`t
know..***
Where was that? I only posted to your responses.
***don`t confuse meekness with weakness***
absolutely,
I never claimed to be either.
*** HEY NOLOPASTRAMI WHATS THE NAME OF THAT CULT YOU BELONG TOO?***
no cult,
no affiliation. just the Bible. (...no anchovies..LOL)
***YEAH THAT`LL WIN YOU SOME CONVERTS***
I said before,
I´m not an evangelist; that´s someone else´s job.
***Nolo: You asked for the word in Greek. When I give it to you
then you say we could quote back and forth and on and on.***
Whoa - excuse me, I wasn´t even talking to you. So I
don´t know what you´re talking about. I told shadrak to look up what the word ´repent´ meant in the Greek. I know you had
a Greek translation thread going, but that wasn´t with me.
***(SEE I BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS AND NOT WHAT I CAN
TWIST IT TO MAKE.) ***
Look, the Bible isn´t something that´s going to work in you by ´cutting and pasting´ quotes
in your brain. They have to actually mean something internally to you. If you can´t say what they mean to you, you´re just
a tape recorder, repeating what you´ve read. That doesn´t make any kind of communication connection with the human condition,
which is why we face to face talk - instead of just handing out Bibles and letting the unsaved read. And so if we simply read
it for them - you still haven´t made any connection - you´re just reciting what they could read for themselves. I think we´re
responsible for doing more than that.
***(YOU AVOID QUOTING THE BIBLE BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ITS CONTENT..YOU SHOULD
WRITE YOUR OWN BIBLE)***
No, actually, if you had been around on this forum, you would have seen a lot of posts from
FHL. Now there´s some quoting.
The problem was, there were so many quotes, without anyone being reached. Actually, it
was a variation on what I´m telling you now in these posts.
I could see it was obscuring any point FHL was trying to make,
by always referencing everything in a quote. You may be right in your stance and position, and win the battle by quotes, by
getting the unbeliever to withdraw; but in the war of understanding that you want the other person to see, you´ve lost.
This
is not a test where God is peering over your shoulder, making sure you´re biblically PC. It´s not for you to get defensive
about how well YOU believe what you believe. It´s about communicating to others what (and why) you believe to them, so they
can examine what they feel sure and unsure about, and compare it to your thought processes. If you don´t display why you think
as you do, and how things interconnect, you´re just another flat resource, like a book.
We´re all human, and no one
really believes becoming spiritual is simple as flipping a switch. So why not do some explaining, and illustrate the workings
of God internally. Your stance is one of "I´m saved and you´re not". Well, okay, you get a gold star; but most don´t really
care if you are. (believe it or not, I do, but I expect more out of a christian who gets on a public forum, to make public
statements, in effect representing christianity; to do more than just say "hooray, I won!".) You LEAD others to Christ, not
slap them forward with a book to the ass. (and if I´m crude and cuss and use the vernacular, it´s for a reason - one I know
you wouldn´t grasp). So if were all human, you better communicate on a human level, with all the who, what, when, and where
in your statements, the things people want to know. You can be absolutely legally right, and yet with the way you say something,
for the context, be absolutely wrong.
I wouldn´t presume to write my own Bible. The one we´re given is plenty fine
with me. But for all the content you see written, even Paul says (in a very familiar exasperated tone), ´why do I have to
keep going over the basics with you; this is milk. It´s time for you to move on in your understandings into strong meat. You
can´t stay at this milk level, and expect to move forward as a christian.´ You're
expected to mature -- expand, develop, further illuminate, the gospel. He expected christians to do as he did. He started
with the gospels, and wrote and preached epistles -- what we have only a partial collection of . All the others, who took
the gospels, and illustrated and expanded them as collected into the epistles, did the same. This is not a ´different´ gospel
being preached, that Paul warned about. This is THE GOSPEL, unfolded in each person, and displayed as something others could
follow, as something that touched their yearnings for a contact with God.
The Gospel has always been God reaching
out to Man, encouraging Man to reach out to Him.
Anything that leads away from that, is not leading to God. Your dogmatic
approach is great only for you, it makes you sure and secure. That´s fine. But for others who say ´your message is fine, but
it seems to exclude me.´ Your stance is one of ´this is the way it is, take it or leave it, tough luck for you if you don´t
believe EXACTLY as I do. Until you believe as I do, you are excluded.´
I would rather say, ´get introduced to God and
what He says, and you two argue it out.´ The point is the introduction to God first. Let the transformation of what God wants
them to be, be a personal business between them and God. I personally am not gay, wouldn´t be if I tried, it just doesn´t
do anything for me, physically doesn´t appeal. But even if I tried, it would clearly be a sin for me. Not just the Bible,
but my own conscience would bother me. But I can´t speak for anyone else´s conscience. Who knows what sins I may harbor that
don´t reach my conscience. This was the point of the Law being death. Under the law, even an unknown sin (like walking over
a grave would pollute you, even if you didn´t know it was there) would condemn you. But I´m forgiven. So what gives you the
right to tell gays that basically, they won´t be forgiven? (see your own sentence below)
***THE BIBLE IS THE WORD
OF GOD..I DO NOT PRETEND TO BE SMARTER THAN MY CREATOR..WHERE WAS YOU DURING CREATION?)***
But I have asked for wisdom,
so that I could understand, and explain to others (as Paul says) ´the reason for my faith´. "Be all things to all people",
sure doesn´t mean be a robot. (and the damn wasn´t for you, it was for the appellation ´robot´, which means an unfeeling programmed
thing. All unfeeling programmed things should be condemned. I maybe should have said ´don´t be a whitened sepulcher´.) Your
righteousness (and mine, for that matter) is a used tampon or used toilet paper - so don´t get so uppity on what ´you know
is right´.
I don´t disagree with God´s word. I just know that merely repeating or reciting it, is not the same as
understanding it. You still didn´t say why God condemns, you just say, ´because it says so´. He has reasons for why He does
things, some mysterious and unfathomable; but some just take diligent searching. What Majek said was very interesting, and
I´m going to investigate further. It´s that kind of searching the Word, that Paul says we´re supposed to do.
Any kind
of chasing after the flesh is a sin, you´re arguing on what degree of severity it is. I say it doesn´t matter - all have sinned.
Repent isn´t just for one sin, or a dozen. Repent is for the total alignment of the person. Repenting for all sins. Repenting
for Sin. Are you sinless? Of course not, but your sins are forgiven. Do gays sin? Yes, but if they ask for forgiveness, they
have it. Is it a license to sin? Of course not. But you´re getting the cart before the horse. Once you come into a relationship
that´s close and personal (I mean a constant dialog with God, and a constant awareness of His presence) all your focus devoted
to Him, it leaves the desires of the flesh secondary, a fading factor in your life. Seek God, and all the things He doesn´t
want for you, will eventually be cured. Don´t demand ´straightness´ as a requirement to know God. Like you said, He came to
save the sinners. Now that you personally are saved, why are you excluding others?
...and I´m not angry. Hah,
you´ve never seen me angry yet. I´ve been merely stern. I don´t suffer foolishness lightly.
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