***There are other points in the bible where god "hardens someone´s heart" in order to intentionally guide them into making the wrong decision.***

But that´s jumping in, at the end of the story, everytime...if you start at the beginnings of His dealing with those types, it always starts with, either they don´t need/believe in God, or they resist/defy Him.
He gives the choice, and when rejection is chosen...then he ´allows´ their heart to harden. He ´makes´ it harden, by removing any Godly influences that He originally had created in the heart.

The more you resist obeying Him, the harder your heart becomes -- until the rejection of what He wills gets to a point where He allows what your will is insisting -- that He leave you alone.

Realizing that this is speaking of the God of the Bible -- your god/gods , if you have one (and some claim they don´t), may say something different to you.

But if you don´t believe in the God of the Bible, then why bring up what He does as recorded there? Are you then validating what He says -- even in part? And if not -- in reinforcing your point, you draw the perfect example of what hardening of the heart does, according to the Biblical point of view.

In other words...by the example you chose (of a hardened heart)...you grabbed the very argument that would collapse the discussion because it defines the answer within the question, for both points of view...

You look at it, as a point of arbitrariness or partiality on God´s part -- which if a human had acted that way, would be unfair...
But the scriptural God´s point of view is of the waywardness of a child in disobedience, being allowed to become ´adult´ (and ruled by their own self) by the removal of ´parental´ (God´s) influence...
Then when the ´adults´ say, "why did you smite me?"...it´s...come on -- you declare yourself independent of instruction/direction -- set yourself up as equal, in opposition/competition with God -- and then can´t live up to your own image as your own god -- and instantly revert to child by whining that He´s not fair for smiting you...

You can´t reject Him...and expect Him to play along....
You don´t make up rules...and expect Him to follow them...
You can´t deny His existance...and expect Him to evaporate...
You´re not going to be left alone to play in His universe...reject Him -- go get your own...

Oh, that´s so unfair...why doesn´t He hit me over my head with His presence, and make it abundantly clear what He wants? Why doesn´t He do things so that they make sense to me? Why does He do things that seem contradictory?

Well, it´s said over and over, that the very thing that makes you crave Independence -- is the very thing that will blind you to the understanding of things set from an ´obedience´ point of view...
You´ll never get an explanation that´ll make sense because all the focal settings are inside-out...
The facts are the same for both of us.
The explanations are the same.
The questions.
The answers.
The cosmos.

We are looking at it from opposite ends of the lens...(bad analogy -- most lenses are either a microscope or telescope....I mean a hypothetical straight-through lens -- that doesn´t diminish or enlarge -- but that reverses, or turns inside-out, whatever the observers compare through that lens.)

***Oh we´re discussing Buddhism? Sorry, my mistake. I´ll see if I can find a copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead to quote instead.***

If it proves whatever point you´re making, why not? But if you´re using a source to back your point that you find full of errors...I don´t see the logic in using a self-proclaimed flawed tool to construct a solid refutation.


***If that´s the case, then I must be doing god´s will. Perhaps I exist so you can feel superior about yourself.***

Missed again...I feel neither superior nor inferior...you´re misrepresenting my motives from your world view...No doubt even the non-believers are woven into His will...His design after the Fall, by the very nature of freewill, had even the non-participants figured in.
All are inferior to God. That´s the point. We´re either siblings in communion -- or we´re siblings apart...NOT in positions of elevation or diminution (remember microscope and telescope?). Subservience or rebellion.



***Yeah, that´s right. Once I had a civil discussion, I intentionally sabotaged it by bringing up an example you didn´t approve of. ***

I may be brusque, but I doubt we´ve slipped into incivility...and I´m not accusing you of sabotaging your own arguement...but I feel you´ve handicapped yourself by simple gainsaying of my position...
And you´ve missed again...there is no ´approval´ of an example -- it´s either relevant, or it´s inappropriate...
Your unapproval of how God operated with the hard-hearted, was actually a perfect example; like I said, of the very illustration you gave -- and working out in live-realtime example, what you described was the thing that disturbed you in that example...



***The bible says were created in his image. Perhaps if he were some divine octopus, all these god-derived emotions and attitudes would be moot and we´d be fighting over who has the most tentacles instead.***

That could be true...but since part of that nature concerns the spiritual nature (reflecting His nature)...and He´s the source of the world of Spirit...then the natural assumption of focus should be upon what He wants and expects of us; for us to emulate that nature...
Since I´ve found no deeper or more thorough explanation of what those duties to my Creator would be, other than the Bible...I have no other rational, logical alternative...



***Ok so lets act like a bunch of toddlers so nothing bad will ever happen to us.***

Let´s separate being childish, from being child-like. The distinction being -- one is selfish, and the other is dependent.
If the most important part of us -- important enough that it totally outweighs the concerns of any other part of us -- our spiritual nature -- is safe (and we really believe that).....then in actuality, nothing really bad can happen to us. Physical worldly things, being of lesser importance (why lesser? Because physical things pass away -- spiritual things endure forever) can certainly hurt us, subdue us, entangle us, etc...but they can´t make us completely cease to exist......Being on the wrong side of spiritual things can, however, cause us to perpetually cease to exist....

***Or maybe you mean...god gave us free will, just as long as we follow HIS will...or he smites us...***

Sounds terrible to you, doesn´t it? But you´ve put your finger on the crux of the situation....
God gave us free will to see if we would submit to His will...He´s the artist, and we´re the instrument....
Smiting is bad enough...but it´s just a spanking -- it´s the ignoring and shunning that´s to be feared....

***Yeah. Free will, my ass.***

And this was my point about your example...the real complaint you had wasn´t about how it seemed to you that God inserted hard-heartedness...but it´s how you see free will (or the lack of it) played out in my belief system.....


***Because:
1. He doesn´t exist.
2. He does exist, but he´s insane.
3. He does exist, but the bible is in error, if not totally fiction.***

Like I said above...the cosmology I´ve found in the Bible is enough to support proof of His existence, and His wisdom, and the essentials He wished to communicate through time are protected by Him...

***So free will is another trick to make an excuse to send us to hell.***

It´s no trick...layed out in stark contrast -- obedience or rebellion...
And it´s no ´sending´...it´s a ´letting go´...


***I´ll never get an answer that makes sense because the bible itself doesn´t make sense. It wasn´t meant to.***


Makes sense to me...how did that happen if it´s totally senseless? That´s not logical. You can´t get something from nothingness....
What you and the Bible agree on, is that to the unbeliever, it doesn´t make sense...

***The proof of this can be seen in the multiple numbers of christian sects, all of which claim to be the ONLY church, who have the REAL truth, and who all disagree on what the bible and the religion built upon it mean.***

That only proves that we all are lost...and in searching for the essentials...the heart of what each is looking for, where their worship really is, is revealed...

There´s been enough attacks that it´s set the tone, that anyone trying to delineate what they think, has been set up to be on the defensive...and being on the defensive, we grab the tried-and-true tools of our childhood and always show the pointy end of the stick...

Trying to drop the accusatory tone is as difficult as trying to see from the other´s point of view...

But I´ve gotten to the point that I don´t mind the attacks, as long as inbetween defending my position...I can draw out positive statements of belief, inbetween denials and negative counterpoint...

...much to agree upon...but don´t mistake my statements for support for vipers like televangelists...or the spouting of hellfire...

...the ´good news´ may have a obit column on page three...but it´s the headlines we´re to broadcast...God is waiting to welcome us back...
Unless God poured your breakfast cereal for you this morning, we all lack an intimate, and physical, and even anthropomorphic relationship with Him...
Most people yearn for that...of whatever their concept of god/gods may be...

The description of what you see the path to be, since it is explaining the ineffable, is going to be more a weeding away of what the path is NOT...that´s going to put you in a position of describing from negatives...and what else can happen, but one of your ´is nots´ is bound to be someone else´s ´is´...

In trying to reach common ground, universalities could be reached -- there is only so much raw material to work from, however -- that it´s going to be clear that we look at the same things...only with a different perspective or focus...

Like I said...most would agree on achieving the end result...harmony, peace, security, nurturing, trust, happiness.....

It´s really going to narrow down then in how we go about trying to set that tone, or try to arrive there, in our physical day-to-day actions and relationships...

Some claim it can be done ourselves.
Others say a Divine intervention is necessary.
Still others insist it´s impossible.
I can use weak rationale, and say that all three may be likely, or any combination...

The intent is for things to be better...if we can´t agree on what´s keeping it worse...then we ought to narrow down in our own minds where among the three we stand, and what our relationship to the other two is going to be...and is that either going to help or hinder getting to where we´re going?