Re: Why did God create the Devil?***So God made the Devil to use him***
...your kidīs bright...the only refinement
itīd put in his statement is in the line above...
God does use
the fact that there is a devil (not quite the same things as īGod uses the devilī), His plans dovetail with the fact that
there is a Deceiver loose in the world; to refine and bring forth good in the face of adversity from His people in the world...
And God did not make the Devil...God made a superior creature, who exercised
his free will and became (or made himself into) the Devil...
***So what you are saying is that God willingly created a being which
He knew (all-knowing) would rebel against Him and in turn led others astray. What happened to the all-loving aspect?***
...just
inflate that statement a little more...God willingly created us, which He knew would rebel against Him, and lead fellow humans
astray....
Love is giving YOU, and every individual, the choice to love back,
or not...And when He considers obedience the way for us to love Him back...then obey=love, disobey=not love...
In these conditions, it becomes clear where any individual creature
stands...it's because He allowed the conditions to stand, that makes choosing and having a choice valid...it makes other situations,
like 'fairness', and 'innocents' suffering' and 'injustice', all that
much more full of meaning -- that are indicators that a battle is going on over choosing sides...and in preserving the over-riding
importance of having choices, certain situations are going to be painful and extreme...that's the nature of war...In allowing
the situation to be so bad actually shows love -- selfishness would have Him over-riding everything with His will, preserving
what He wanted by NEVER allowing a choice...
Not at all...there was a 'time' before evil existed; and there'll
be a 'time' when evil will exist no more...
But the idea of contrast, illuminates that which is 'good' because
of evil...this isn't the purpose of evil -- just a by-product...
...but without good, there wouldn't be anything for evil to draw off
of...
***No, I donīt see it as a by-product. It is what enables something
to be good in the first place.
Without evil, there would be no choice; therefore evil was created/allowed
to facilitate choice.***
Not so...by definition and composition -- God is good...He needs nothing,
Heīs complete...
A beautiful sky is good...it needs no tornadic deadly īevilī
sky in contrast to make it a īgoodī sky...
But this IS one of the reasons that evil isnīt just swept away...to
SHOW the choice between good and evil...
Evil is firmly rooted in the concept of choice -- only that in the
nature of the only valid choice that could be made within the nature of reality -- was to reject reality; and yet not instantly
cease to exist after the choice was made...
There was no evil in Man before the Fall...all the numbers of times
that Man looked at the Tree, and chose NOT to eat, wasnīt recorded...but it must have been at least once, when the Tree was
first pointed out to Man...maybe many, many times, the thought to eat NEVER occurred to Man...At that point...before he had
the Tree pointed out to him, he was not evil -- and then after it was pointed out, and he didnīt choose to disobey, he was
still not evil.
It wasnīt until Man disobeyed, and ate...that he became evil...
So he was good before he had a choice, and even for a time when he
did...Goodness is totally independent of evil, and doesnīt need evil to justify its existence or give it a framework to express
itself...Since it is Reality, it can stand on its own -- without its opposite...
***However, I maintain that there really isnīt much free choice/will
anyway***
That may be...the choice for some may narrow down to one single choice
in an entire lifetime...or it may occur each and every second.......the results are the same.....
***Shark, I know you think me dense***
Not at all, the nature of the Veil that occurred at the Fall makes
all of this hard to see...
***but why did God tempt man? If He created the garden of Eden and
was happy with its existence and inhabitants why was that not enough?***
It was enough...it's not recorded, because it's not pertinent to our
current (Fallen) situation...but we could have been in the Garden for eons -- Linear Time came into existence at the Fall
(we know this because Time, Death, Sin, etc., will be done away with at some point when all effects of the Fall are healed);
so for an hour, or for a thousands of years, Man and God dwelt together in the Garden...
***He created the situation to facilitate evil.***
No, it was to facilitate obedience; which was necessary if He
was planning to elevate us to His level...
I'm repeating this...because you might not have seen it...and it seems
to be a recurring sentiment...one I see and recognize. It was a stumbling block in understanding for me also...but its very
glaring impossibility was a clue to seek deeper for why...The very injustice seemed a logical fallacy -- but every alternative
explanation, when extended to its logical conclusion -- became an even more absurd explanation...
***In my opinion, these people were better than all of the people
sitting in churches that evening who then went back to their nice warm homes and opened gifts they did not need.***
That's probably true...the problem is when you look for relevancy
and answers in a culture, rather than in a way of living...
If you rightly see the wrong alignment of those that are supposed
to believe...the challenge to you would be to take their 'story' and run with it how you are saying it 'should' be lived...
...This is exactly what I did...I despised the false suited pampered
creatures that inhabited the buildings with steeples...but to try out if what they claimed was true, to give it a fair chance
-- I took what they claimed, applied it, and lived without the acculturations they had layered upon it...
...world of difference...
...if you have trouble seeing Yashua in His followers, then look solely
to Him...then do it how you and He would have it lived....
***there is no god or devil ok? there is no santa or tooth fairy or
easter bunny. grow up already and communicate things in a mature logical way.***
No God? Then how do you explain the ANTI-survival traits of self-sacrifice,
that are opposite to 'survival of the fittest'?
The shear compiling of statistical 'miracles' that needed to occur
for life to get to the point where you are reading this...
...it's too late for me tonight to go into the existence of God...this
is a explanation that has surfaced repeatedly in this forum...
All I can say is -- what is your cosmology that explains why things
are the way they are?
...and I think I've demonstrated a logical consistancy...if you take
certain premises as a base, and work out from there...what I believe has an internal coherence, and interconnects and reinforces
each of its premises...
Of course, if you don't agree with the basic premise, then all else
is not going to make sense, under whatever standards of cosmology that you have...
But to imply that what I believe is some half-baked fantasy, is to
ignore the sheer volume of explanations that I offer...
Fantasies always fall short, usually in several critical areas, where
they fall silent, and offer no elucidation...
***Where in any scripture does it say that god is separate from creation***
All throughout scripture...repeatedly it says that God is Holy....
{BIG hint...Holy means Separate)...
Sure the potter leaves his mark upon his clay pots...in a poetic way
you could say you see the creator in his objects....but to confuse the created object with the creator, is to ignore important
definitions that define what things are in Ultimate Reality, and what things are that exist in this temporal world...there
is a connection, but not a synonymous equality...
